Stone of stumbling and rock of offense ([info]wordweaverlynn) wrote,
@ 2006-09-01 10:07:00
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Mr. Ellison Explains It All
Now we know what really happened.


HARLAN ELLISON - Tuesday, August 29 2006 12:19:50

REPLY TO LYNNE BATIK:

Would you believe that, having left the Hugo ceremonies immediately after
my part in it, while it was still in progress ... and having left the
hall entirely ... yet having been around later that night for Kieth
Kato's traditional chili party ... and having taken off next morning for
return home ... and not having the internet facility to open "journalfen"
(or whatever it is), I was unaware of any problem proceeding from my
intendedly-childlike grabbing of Connie Willis's left breast, as she was
exhorting me to behave.

Nonetheless, despite my only becoming aware of this brouhaha right this
moment (12 noon LA time, Tuesday the 29th), three days after the digital
spasm that seems to be in uproar ...YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

iT IS UNCONSCIONABLE FOR A MAN TO GRAB A WOMAN'S BREAST WITHOUT HER
EXPLICIT PERMISSION. To do otherwise is to go 'way over the line in terms
of invasion of someone's personal space. It is crude behavior at best,
and actionable behavior at worst. When George W> Bush massaged the back
of the neck of that female foreign dignitary, we were all justly
appalled. For me to grab Connie's breast is in excusable, indefensible,
gauche, and properly offensive to any observers or those who heard of it
later.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I've called Connie. Haven't heard back from her yet. Maybe I never will.

So. What now, folks? It's not as if I haven't been a politically
incorrect creature in the past. But apparently, Lynne, my 72 years of
indefensible, gauche (yet for the most part classy), horrifying,
jaw-dropping, sophomoric, sometimes imbecile behavior hasn't--till
now--reached your level of outrage.

I'm glad, at last, to have transcended your expectations. I stand naked
and defenseless before your absolutely correct chiding.

With genuine thanks for the post, and celestial affection, I remain,
puckishly,

Yr. pal, Harlan

P.S. You have my permission to repost this reply anywhere you choose, on
journalfen, at SFWA, on every blog in the universe, and even as graffiti
on the Great Wall of China.


- Thursday, August 31 2006 21:21:38

...AND MARK:

Would you be slightly less self-righteous and chiding if I told you there was

NO grab...

there was

NO grope...

there was

NO fondle...

there was the slightest touch. A shtick, a gag between friends, absolutely NO sexual content.

Would you, and the ten thousand maggots who have blown this up into a cause celebre, be even the least bit abashed to know that I apologized WAY BEYOND what the "crime" required, on the off chance that I HAD offended? Let me ask you, Mark:

1) Were you there?
2) Did you see it?
3) Are you standing on your soapbox to chide me via 3rd/4th-hand reportage by OTHERS who weren't there?
4) Do you also buy the infinite number of other internet brouhahas that turned out to be misreported?

Here it is, Mark; and for any others who fit the shoe:

In the words of that great American philosopher, Tony Isabella,
"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved."

Does not anyone READ WHAT I WROTE within fifteen minutes of learning of this? Does not anyone wonder why, if it was such a piggish thing I did, as one of those jerkwad blogs calls it, Connie Willis hasn't, after twenty-five years of "friendship," not returned my call on Monday ... or responded to the Fedex packet of my posting here on Monday, which Fedex advises me she received at 2:20 pm on Tuesday?

Can the voluble and charismatic Connie not even pick up a phone to tell the man whose work she "admires deeply" that he has gone a bridge too far? Is she so wracked by the Awfulness of it that she is incapable of saying to his face, you went too far? No one EVER asked her to "bell the cat." She decided that was her role toward me, long ago. And I've put up with it for years.

How about it, Mark: after playing straight man to Connie's very frequently demeaning public jackanapery toward me -- including treating me with considerable disrespect at the Grand Master Awards Weekend, where she put a chair down in front of her lectern as Master of Ceremonies, and made me sit there like a naughty child throughout her long "roast" of my life and career -- for more than 25 years, without once complaining, whaddays think, Mark, am I even a leetle bit entitled to think that Connie likes to play, and geez ain't it sad that as long as SHE sets the rules for play, and I'm the village idiot, she's cool ... but gawd forbid I change the rules and play MY way for a change ... whaddaya think, Mark, my friend, am I within the parameters of brutish pigginess to suggest if she WAS offended, then I apologize ... even if you and a garbage-scowload of asinine pathetic internet wanks get up on their "affront" and tell me how to behave?

I've sat here for four days, quietly, having done as much forelock-tugging and kneeling as I feel -- as I -- I -- not you -- not fan pinheads in far places who jumped and bayed and went after me in a second -- but I --who is responsible for my behavior -- as I feel is proper. And for four days I've waited for Deeply Outraged and Debased Connie Willis -- an avowed friend and admirer of my work for more than a quarter century --to get up off her political correctness and take her pal off the gibbet.

I spent more hours traveling this benighted country, for eight years, state after state after state, lecturing in defense of women's rights and passage of the ERA than any of you have spent mouthing your sophomoric remonstrances.

As the Great American Philosopher Tony Isabella has said, "Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved."

My last word on this clusterfuck. If Willis wants in, she knows where you all are. She knows where I am.All the rest is silence.

Harlan Ellison



And this is the post he was apparently responding to:
I could go on, but let me share how I have dealt with guys who grab boobs without permission. I'm an out gay man. Four times now I have been witness to "playful" unwanted boob grabs. Each time, I have "playfully" reached over and cupped the guy's crotch. Each and every one--including the one gay guy--were horrified and offended--including two I've known for years. Familiarity has nothing to do with it. It's an invasion. All you guys here who think it's no big deal, please stop by so I can hold your balls. All you women here who think it's blown out of proportion, get some self-respect.


(Post a new comment)


[info]cumaeansibyl
2006-09-01 05:12 pm UTC (link)
So is it just me, or is it time to sing another chorus of "Women Have No Sense Of Humor/Men Aren't Fucking Funny"?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cynthia1960
2006-09-01 05:30 pm UTC (link)
Some music would be a nice accompaniment for a vigorous round of patriarchy-smashing. This behavior is completely over-the-top.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]amaebi
2006-09-01 05:30 pm UTC (link)
...and you know, I expect Ellison views himself as having made an apology that should be accepted....

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]callunav
2006-09-02 06:16 am UTC (link)
You may be right, and if so, that's one of the disturbing bits.

I mean, certainly, he represents himself as having given what people should be accepting as an apology. I can't at all tell whether he's truly unaware that he isn't apologizing at all or not.

From a psychological point of view, fascinating.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ankaret
2006-09-01 05:30 pm UTC (link)
I'm utterly confused by the 'Connie Willis hasn't... not...' phrasing. Is he saying he is in contact with her, or he's not?

Not, of course, that whether she's contacted him is in any way my business, I'm just failing reading comprehension here.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]pir_anha
2006-09-01 05:51 pm UTC (link)
she hadn't contacted him (at the time he wrote that) -- he left a message on her answering machine. which is apparently adding to his ire -- there he was, all ready to crawl through glass, and she dares to not have called him right back.

so now we're getting treated to how she has demeaned him for 25 years and he's taking it all without complaint, and so he was entitled to "play", but all us evil uninvolved people don't want to see The Trvth.

more words, deeper hole.

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(no subject) - [info]betnoir, 2006-09-01 05:57 pm UTC (Expand)
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[info]rmjwell
2006-09-01 06:01 pm UTC (link)
I'll have a post about this when I get home and dig up my old copy of HE's "The Glass Teat" or "The Other Glass Teat"; the best reply I can think of is Harlan's own words from nearly forty years ago.

But I want to get it right.

(Reply to this)


[info]mortaine
2006-09-01 06:17 pm UTC (link)
I think he should just say "Well, what did you EXPECT when you invited me?!?!?"

I've never heard anything good about the man. The writing, I've heard good things. Never actually *read* anything I liked of his, but I've heard from others that there's something redeemable about him.

I just completely lack any proof whatsoever.

(Reply to this)


[info]jewelweed
2006-09-01 06:20 pm UTC (link)
*falls over, exhausted*

Bloody hell, I can't take anymore.

Why doesn't he just spell it out on the gymnasium floor in cheetos and get it over with?

Didn't this guy ever... you, know, in kindergarten.... nevermind.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]faithhopetricks
2006-09-01 08:27 pm UTC (link)
Bloody hell, I can't take anymore.

Yeah, me either. That "apology" was awful, but when he's saying, "if what I did was SO horrible, why hasn't Connie Willis called me to accept my apology" -- god. He's Just Not Getting It.

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(no subject) - [info]jewelweed, 2006-09-01 08:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]faithhopetricks, 2006-09-01 08:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jewelweed, 2006-09-01 08:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Because he supported the ERA he now has the right to sexually harrass women and get away with it???? - [info]jonquil, 2006-09-01 08:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Because he supported the ERA he now has the right to sexually harrass women and get away with it - [info]jewelweed, 2006-09-01 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Because he supported the ERA he now has the right to sexually harrass women and get away with it - [info]faithhopetricks, 2006-09-02 04:37 am UTC (Expand)

[info]fixnwrtr
2006-09-01 06:27 pm UTC (link)
I'm sure as an "out gay man" he was horrified at the idea of grabbing another guy's balls. Please. I have a lot of self respect and I think the situation has been blown way out of proportion. It's for Connie Willis to chastise Harlan Ellison and not the rest of the world. Ellison has been punished and castigated quite enough, thank you.

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[info]betnoir
2006-09-01 06:49 pm UTC (link)
I don't want to grab the balls of every man I see.

why should a gay man feel any different?

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[info]silverstorm2013
2006-09-01 06:27 pm UTC (link)
At the risk of being roasted alive, and as much as I hate coming to Harlan’s defense, I have to agree with him on one point. This is a private matter between two old friends. Was it inappropriate? I don’t know. For all I know they were back stage slapping each others ass’s saying “good game”. And frankly I wouldn’t put it past him to set it up before hand with her as a “lets see how much we can tweak the fans.” joke

I’m not saying that touching a woman’s breast without permission is acceptable. I am saying that unless you were there, know the facts, and have both stories you can’t judge.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]gvdub
2006-09-01 06:35 pm UTC (link)
The fact that he did it in public, in front of a couple of thousand people, at an awards ceremony where Connie was not only the MC, but a nominee and winner, kinda keeps it from being a private matter.

Harlan's just another fanboy who seems to think that being a petty asshole is a good public presentation, as so many other fanbois do. It's old, it's tired, and it's stupid.

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[info]matociquala
2006-09-01 06:28 pm UTC (link)
If "Mark" were straight, I would kiss him.

...unless that would be an unwanted invasion of personal space.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]faithhopetricks
2006-09-01 08:33 pm UTC (link)
I think we would be standing in line, at this point. Heh. I bet at the next convention he goes to, a lot of women are going to want to buy his drinks in the bar. I would, anyway.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Not just a single, don't want to say victim, object of his unwanted attentions
[info]oursin
2006-09-01 08:00 pm UTC (link)
[info]rachelmanija was a total stranger to him (she had to be informed who he was after the incident): this did not stop him poking her in the belly-button.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Not just a single, don't want to say victim, object of his unwanted attentions
[info]wordweaverlynn
2006-09-01 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Then there's the way he hassled a 15-year-old girl. No question, Harlan Ellison has repeatedly and egregiously behaved like an asshole.

But as you know, Bob, it's not just Ellison; it's not even just SF. My objection to the behavior is part and parcel of my objection to Dubya grabbing the German Prime Minister, or any of the other ways human beings demean other human beings.

I'm angry with Ellison, yes. But my rage and my desire for change go a long way beyond one SF writer whose tentacles need to stay on his keyboard. I want the culture to change. I'm happy to discuss specific incidents in public, but I will be profoundly bothered if in six months or a year Ellison has been ostracized but the rest of the SF community has continued the same old path.

I know you know all this. But I need to say it, and (like Harlan Ellison), you're handy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Not just a single, don't want to say victim, object of his unwanted attentions - [info]oursin, 2006-09-01 09:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Not just a single, don't want to say victim, object of his unwanted attentions - [info]jonquil, 2006-09-01 09:29 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]callunav
2006-09-01 08:03 pm UTC (link)
This set of arguments is stupifying. Pardon me, but I'm going to spam your journal deconstructing it, because I think it needs it. I wish I could be more concise about it, because then, I think, people would understand what I'm saying better, but I'm afraid this is the verbose version.

The letter to Batik is a pretty coherent piece of sleight-of-hand. The response to Mark is impressionistic and disturbingly disjointed. Superficially, it sounds sort of as though it hangs together, but it really, really doesn't.

Letter to Lynne Batik

FIRST PARAGRAPH: This problem is only among you geeks who spend all your time on that internet thing; no one who was cool enough to actually be at the ceremonies told me anything about it, or not in such a way that I couldn't avoid paying attention to. I grabbed Connie Willis's left breast (I remember it clearly) which was a child-like (not childish) thing to do, because children often grope adult women's breasts in public when they're annoyed at being told to behave themselves.

SECOND AND THIRD PARAGRAPHS: I'm able to claim to be responding to this as soon as I knew about it. And I'm not going to argue at all about it having been a totally rude and wrong thing for me to do. I aplaud the sensibilities of everyone who is humorless "correct" enough to be upset about it. In fact, if it were someone else who'd done it, I'd probably be making fun of or reproaching that person right now. You're right. Carry on.

FOURTH PARAGRAPH: I present you with facts, and leave the interpretation ambiguous: I acknowledge that it's possible Connie Willis will not want to talk to me after this, but I refrain from speculating on what that might mean, if true. However, despite Willis having cursed me out vigorously and publically for the very behavior you're talking about shortly after the incident, I will continue calling her by her first name, because only two possibilities exist: A, we are good friends and she is not offended at my behavior, and as a friend I have the privilege of calling her by her first name, or B, she's angry at me, in which case I prefer to maintain the condescension of referring to her by her first name only, because I certainly wouldn't want to express cautious respect in either case.

FIFTH PARAGRAPH: I've acknowledged that my, and I quote, "grabbing of Connie Willis's left breast" was wrong. Now what are you going to do about the fact that I've been doing things that were wrong my whole life and getting flack for them and appear not to care no matter what people say about it? And by the way, don't you think it's a little absurd for you to be objecting to this in particular, which is no different from any of the other Little Escapades which have made me famous? Pardon me while I mock you for taking this so seriously. You're right, but who cares about whether you're right or not?

FIFTH PARAGRAPH AND SIGNATURE: I have a sense of humor and you don't, so you have no power over me. I genuinely appreciate your giving me this opportunity to be smug all over again.

PS: Since I feel strongly that I'm in a position of power and you came out of this exchage looking like an idiot, please make sure I get as much press out of this as possible. Besides, it helps me maintain the illusion of having apologised.

(cont'd)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]wordweaverlynn
2006-09-02 05:26 am UTC (link)
Thank you so much -- I was actually sketching out a deconstruction, and you saved me a lot of time.

Very impressive.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Deconstruction, part 2
[info]callunav
2006-09-01 08:20 pm UTC (link)
Response to "Mark"

...I was going to continue in the previous vein, but it just got stupid.

Instead, let's look: in the first part, he first rescinds his statement about what he did. He no longer says he grabbed her breast, which he stated explicitly in the letter to Lynne Batik; instead, he minimizes it as far as he possibly can while still hoping to account for what people saw. Second, he suggests that this was a behavior which was humorous to him and to Willis and that no one other than Willis has any right to have any opinion of it at all. Finally, he maintains that it had "no sexual content" which doesn't very much meaning as a stand-alone statement.

Next, we are treated to the experience of Ellison losing his cool. He remains condescending - the choice of "maggots" rather than, say, "assholes" deliberately reinforces the idea that anyone joining into this argument is too trivial to affect him - but the fact that he is name-calling at all undermines that. He no longer seems to be enjoying being talked about, and suggests that people should feel foolish for turning this into a significant topic of discussion. He no longer wants this discussion up on the Great Wall.

He takes this opportunity to stake out his claim that his letter to Lynne Batik was a groveling apology, presumably hoping that no one reading will be able to discern that it actually expresses no remorse or regret at all. (As someone with a professional background in psychology, I have to wonder briefly if he's actually aware that this wasn't an apology and is trying to scam people, or if he sincerely can't tell the difference.)

Then he hammers home the ideas that A: this wasn't important, and B: the people talking about it are indiscriminate thrill-seekers who don't know or care if their information is correct as long as it gives them something to be outraged about. Deconstructed further, that means, 'people like excuses to be outraged, so really this isn't bout me at all.'

Then he treats us to a dismissive epigram which reinforces his argument without adding anything substantive to it.

Next, he returns to his claim that he has written an extensive apology, and follows it up with a very confusing statement. This is where it starts to get really interesting. It's confusing because he conflates two contradictory devices.

On the one hand, he's returning to his initial themes, that this was trivial, that the only person who would have any right to be upset is Willis herself, and that she hasn't returned his call to *tell* him that she's upset, so no one else should infer that she is.

On the other hand, he's making the move of putting 'friendship' in quotes, hinting that possibly Willis is *not* his friend, after all. The foreshadowing of the 'Connie Willis is a jerk to me, so why shouldn't I be a jerk to her' argument doesn't work when it's seeded into a 'Connie Willis and I are friends, this is between her and me, it was just a joke, she doesn't mind so you shouldn't mind' argument.

After that, the 'Willis is my friend, you just don't understand us' argument really starts to crumble. The next argument is, "It's her job to *make* me stop, if she doesn't like what I'm doing. If she doesn't decide to respond to me, then either A: she must have liked it (in which case no one else has a right to be upset) or B: she is weak and not deserving of your respect or mine." I believe that in other settings, Ellison's been clear about it being men's responsibility to control their own behavior, but in this case, he's falling back firmly on the male prerogative of, "Well, she didn't say no. Well, she didn't say 'no' loud enough/often enough. Well, she didn't scream. Well--" and I think we know that one.

And again, we've got a weird transition which blurs the line between two arguments: "Is she so wracked by the Awfulness of it that she is incapable of saying to his face, you went too far? No one EVER asked her to "bell the cat." She decided that was her role toward me, long ago. And I've put up with it for years."
(cont'd *again*)

(Reply to this)

that does it.
[info]faithhopetricks
2006-09-01 08:21 pm UTC (link)
OH NO, HE DI'IN'T.

Fuck, man, I've been witnessing this painfully because I loved Ellison when I was younger and he meant a great deal to me and I thought he was behaving like an absolute fucking schmuck and it was painful. But really, fuck him. Just fuck him. People make fun of "I'll never buy your work again!", but I'll use my power as an independent consumer from now on to boycott his books. He did grope, and he didn't apologize, not really, and what Connie says or doesn't say to him (he FedExed her a copy of that stupid apology? Jesus) doesn't mean anything.

Each time, I have "playfully" reached over and cupped the guy's crotch. Each and every one--including the one gay guy--were horrified and offended

OTOH, if that guy ever wants babies, I'm available.

(Reply to this)

Deconstruction, part three (last one, I promise)
[info]callunav
2006-09-01 08:21 pm UTC (link)
The first sentence of this quote has nothing at all to do with the remainder. Putting them together like this is a - deliberate or unthinking - attempt to bypass the critical thinking of readers and let everything go by in a blur. Separated out, the first sentence is the end of the "If she didn't like it, it's her responsibility to make a public stand against it, and take whatever crap Jo Walton and the rest got for doing so" argument.

The rest is a whole new argument which consists, essentially, of " Just because I act like an asshole doesn't mean I don't have feelings. I do have feelings, just like everyone else. And Connie Willis has done things that made me feel humiliated, and I didn't speak up, I treated it as a joke between her and me. So it's only fair that I should do things that make her feel humiliated and she shouldn't say anything about it, and it should be treated - by her and everyone else - as a joke between her and me, because the situations are exactly parallel."

And apparently her behavior really did sting, because at this point Ellison degenerates into outright, ill-constructed verbal abuse, and this is interesting because the insults are directed at Mark and other people who have expressed outrage, but the anger seems more like it's directed at Willis.

Also, look at this sentence: "as SHE sets the rules for play, and I'm the village idiot, she's cool ... but gawd forbid I change the rules and play MY way for a change ... whaddaya think, Mark, my friend, am I within the parameters of brutish pigginess to suggest if she WAS offended, then I apologize."

This makes no sense. Again, the first part of it concludes the "I was only acting to her the way she's acted to me" argument, but then it goes on to say...what? "Is it brutishly piggish of me to apologize"? Obviously not. Or "I am within my rights to apologize if she was offended." Of course he's within his rights to apologize if he's offended. Possibly, since the conclusion of that is about people on discussion boards chiming in, he means that he has a right to apologize to Willis without other people interfering - returning again to the idea, crucial to his arguments, that the only person who has any right to be upset is Willis, and, given that, the matter is simply one of whether or not she wants an apology from him.

Then there is a paragraph full of stammering incoherence which comes down to, "I apologized as much as I feel like I should. Willis has in the past given me the impression of being on my side. She should either accept the apology and be done with it, or speak up and let everyone know that the apology wasn't necessary. I'm waiting." And again, although all the verbal abuse is directed at fans, the anger seems to be at Willis. He mocks her outrage by exaggerating it - suggesting that either she isn't or should not be outraged - details the ways in which she ought not to be against him now because she has been for him in the past, and then suggests that her remaining silent is giving the appearance of offense but is done out of political correctness (rather than, say, actual offense), and is a betrayal of their somewhat confusingly represented relationship.

He then throws in references to his history of activism for abstract women's rights. This is an all-purpose rhetorical tool. It's true, but irrelevant. Given a man who has supported women's political rights in words, but has groped at least two women at a recent award ceremony, is he less guilty for the groping than someone who had no history of lecturing for the passage of the ERA? (I would like to suggest that in that light, he might be considered more guilty, if anything, for a betrayal of expectation. But that's one thing he's not being accused of.)

Heightening the incoherence of the reply in general, he repeats his epigram, without seeming to realize that he did so.

And I observe the signature, lacking the impermeable insouciance of his letter to Lynne Batik. Apparently, after four days of this, he is no longer our pal.

(Reply to this)


[info]lavendertook
2006-09-01 08:30 pm UTC (link)
The other apologies I've seen befoe--this one to Mark is new to me.

After the nasty accusations he's throwing at Connie--and how typical of an abuser is this to blame the person he has trespassed upon--this little bit is also quite telling:

I spent more hours traveling this benighted country, for eight years, state after state after state, lecturing in defense of women's rights and passage of the ERA than any of you have spent mouthing your sophomoric remonstrances.

In other words, he's protested for women's rights--he's earned his right ot be misogynistic now and define for women what is and isn't oppressive for them. What an irredeemably misogynistic asshole.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]faithhopetricks
2006-09-01 08:36 pm UTC (link)
how typical of an abuser is this to blame the person he has trespassed upon

Yes, exactly. It has NOTHING to do with what Connie Willis said, or didn't say, or might say. It has to do with what he DID.

Andyeah, he did speak in defense of the ERA -- but he seems absolutely unable to connect that to what he DID, to a WOMAN, in front of an audience with other WOMEN in it. Jesus.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2006-09-01 09:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]faithhopetricks, 2006-09-01 09:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]betnoir, 2006-09-02 01:21 am UTC (Expand)
An open letter to Harlan Ellison:
[info]juliansinger
2006-09-01 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Dear Mr. Ellison,

Having obsserved from afar your recent issues with logorrhea, I have some advice for you.

Don';t. Just don't.

Don't defend yourself. Don't attack other people.

Just don't.

Say, "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done it," and then shut up.

Take, say, a month, and just leave it alone.

Yrs sincerely,

A Former Explainer-While-Apologizing.

P.S. -- I know how unlikely this is, so possibly you should try shutting up for a week, first, /then/ go for a month.

(Reply to this)


[info]jonquil
2006-09-02 12:38 am UTC (link)
Here you go, video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4653991510586546104

43 seconds in, give or take.

Yup, there is unquestionably a deliberate grab. I can't read Willis's reaction; she straightens and says "Ladies and gentlemen, Harlan Ellison."

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]faithhopetricks
2006-09-02 01:10 am UTC (link)
JESUS CHRIST.

That's actually worse than people have been describing. He doesn't just grab, there, he holds on, and if I'm seeing it right his other hand is flat against her back, so she can't get away. Willis looks taken aback and embarrassed to me; Ellison also does this aw-shucks gosh "Aren't I cute?" little head-tilt and palm-to-cheek that just makes me see red. She disentangles herself from him pretty quickly, and I thought "Ladies and gentlemen....Harlan Ellison" after that was a pretty good reaction. Yeah, here he is.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]madam_silvertip, 2006-09-02 04:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wordweaverlynn, 2006-09-02 05:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thenetwork, 2006-09-02 09:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]19_crows, 2006-09-06 08:27 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]madam_silvertip
2006-09-02 03:59 am UTC (link)
I don't think this is explaining-while-apologizing at all; I have some guilty sympathy for people who do that, because I tend to do it, and a lot of overeducated people do it. (After all, our parents tend to reward us for reflecting on our actions.) Not approval, but sympathy.

But old Harlan isn't apologizing, so his explanations are not taking responsibility, are they? Again--I understand from personal experience how easily one can begin to apologize, then get mad at being the goat justly or unjustly and start explaining, then start ranting, then start apologizing again...but that's just not H's style, and if he is apologizing for this I am an ayatollah.

I don't want to trash him. I know people who say his private acts of kindness have saved people's lives, and the like. I think he's a troubled man and a complex man and this is just one side of him, but it's not a side that should escape censure, and doing it in public to a supposed peer just makes me think Andrea Dworkin may have been right after all. (No matter if you won the Nobel Prize, when you walk to the store for milk it's still cunt, and those you love most will remind you of it.) His books come from the library until he has something better to say for himself and something to back it up with in terms of his behavior.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]wordweaverlynn
2006-09-02 05:32 am UTC (link)
Again--I understand from personal experience how easily one can begin to apologize, then get mad at being the goat justly or unjustly and start explaining, then start ranting, then start apologizing again

Have you seen A Fish Called Wanda? There's a great apology scene in that movie that illustrates exactly what you're saying.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]madam_silvertip, 2006-09-03 06:47 am UTC (Expand)
My take on it
[info]rmjwell
2006-09-02 05:48 am UTC (link)
Is that I let the words of others --including some of Harlan's own words of almost 40 years ago-- do the talking for me.

http://rmjwell.livejournal.com/594767.html

(Reply to this)


[info]dandelion_diva
2006-09-02 09:59 am UTC (link)
I've been think about this since his first "apology" and a slightly altered version of a line from the beginning of Labyrinth keeps going through my mind. "That doesn't count! It doesn't even begin with 'I'm Sorry'!"

Gessi

(Reply to this)


[info]abostick59
2006-09-02 06:06 pm UTC (link)
Harlan Ellison would do well to watch the apology scene from A Fish Called Wanda.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]madam_silvertip
2006-09-03 06:52 am UTC (link)
[info]wordweaverlynn referred to it in one of her comments!

I'm very good at being the main actor in such scenes. (And professional pride makes me want to say that Harlan is better described by another scene in a movie: "Scarlett. You're like the thief who is not at all sorry he took the money, but he is very sorry he's going to jail.")

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]19_crows
2006-09-07 05:52 pm UTC (link)
You know, what occured to me about this later last night was gratitude that Harlan did this right out in front of everybody so the whole world can see what kind of person he is. Both the groping itself, and the apologies.

Some people will see nothing wrong with it, but others will see him for who he is. And that's good.

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